at the end of the year, and they're going to use the debt ceiling as their leverage. and interesting -- one interesting thing to watch for in all this is how the republican leaders in congress handle this because there are -- the republican leaders don't want a huge fight over the debt ceiling. but the rank-and-file members do. so how they navigate that is going to have a huge impact on how this plays out, but it's going to be a tremendous fight. and the idea that the president's going to not get to negotiate over the debt ceiling, it's not going to happen. >> well, to that end, what carol's saying, david, there are some in the gop who have suggested a partial government shutdown may be needed to get the spending cuts that they want. do you think that's where we're headed? >> well, i think it's very possible. if you look at how the fiscal cliff played out, as carol noted, republicans didn't get a number of things they were shooting for on their end. so politically, as well as substantively, the fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling i should say, then becomes their next avenu